So...I have this friend of mine who was in choir in high school, and she's also able to "chicken pick" notes on a piano. I've heard her play, and she obviously couldn't really "perform" a song. And her voice isn't good in any realm other than the ability to maybe stay in tune. But she makes so many fundamental mistakes, it's ridiculous. Now, NONE of that would really matter at all, aside from the fact that she refers to herself as a musician...which just about knocked me off my seat. It was almost insulting...especially considering all of the hours spent practicing, listening, learning; and on top of that , all of the hours spent personally and professionally working at my craft.
However, in order to give her the benefit of the doubt (unbeknownst to her, there was an underlying argument festering), I looked up the definition of "musician"...and in a sense, she's right: for as the 2nd definition states, a musician is "any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music". And since "skill" isn't qualified or quantified in some sort of follow-up, the term is pretty much left in a subjective state.
Yet...I still can't ascribe to this. I mean, to me, there's a huge difference between a music enthusiast, and a musician. Please, your thoughts.
“Confucius say, Crowded elevator always smell different to midget."
Colloquially, I would also cringe at this person calling herself a musician, but at the same time who are we to judge? Every creative profession (or hobby) has its share of imposters (artists, writers, you name it) and as someone who is more dedicated than them, it is up to you to let your craft speak for itself.
Lorenzo: So...I have this friend of mine who was in choir in high school, and she's also able to "chicken pick" notes on a piano. I've heard her play, and she obviously couldn't really "perform" a song. And her voice isn't good in any realm other than the ability to maybe stay in tune. But she makes so many fundamental mistakes, it's ridiculous. Now, NONE of that would really matter at all, aside from the fact that she refers to herself as a musician...which just about knocked me off my seat. It was almost insulting...especially considering all of the hours spent practicing, listening, learning; and on top of that , all of the hours spent personally and professionally working at my craft. However, in order to give her the benefit of the doubt (unbeknownst to her, there was an underlying argument festering), I looked up the definition of "musician"...and in a sense, she's right: for as the 2nd definition states, a musician is "any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music". And since "skill" isn't qualified or quantified in some sort of follow-up, the term is pretty much left in a subjective state. Yet...I still can't ascribe to this. I mean, to me, there's a huge difference between a music enthusiast, and a musician. Please, your thoughts.
What do you expect out of the dictionary? Should Noah Webster be parsing out his definitions by skill level?
By the dictionary definition, Freddy Got Fingered and The Godfather are both "movies" but one is obviously different than the other. Yet, if my goal is to describe what "movie" means in English, it doesn't like a travesty when the dictionary encompasses both.
Somebody's delusional about their abilities and the dictionary definition is accurate. What's out of the ordinary here?
Lorenzo: Yet...I still can't ascribe to this. I mean, to me, there's a huge difference between a music enthusiast, and a musician.
Yet...I still can't ascribe to this. I mean, to me, there's a huge difference between a music enthusiast, and a musician.
I don't have a problem with it. I know people who wouldn't consider anyone a "musician" unless it was their full-time means of making a living, and I disagree with that. Additionally, I bet classically trained musicians would roll their eyes at some rock, blues, or folk-guy calling himself a musician, regardless of the proficiency in any given genre.
Not aiming this at you, but I think we'd all be better off if people didn't take themselves so seriously. That "I am an Artiste, and you just don't get it" crap is tired and lame.
Guile: Lorenzo: Yet...I still can't ascribe to this. I mean, to me, there's a huge difference between a music enthusiast, and a musician. I don't have a problem with it. I know people who wouldn't consider anyone a "musician" unless it was their full-time means of making a living, and I disagree with that. Additionally, I bet classically trained musicians would roll their eyes at some rock, blues, or folk-guy calling himself a musician, regardless of the proficiency in any given genre. Not aiming this at you, but I think we'd all be better off if people didn't take themselves so seriously. That "I am an Artiste, and you just don't get it" crap is tired and lame.
Oh, for SURE! I totally agree. However, I can't think of anyone on this board that I've met or have seen perform, who I wouldn't consider a musician. Do I like everyone's band? No. Do I think everyone's 'fabulous' at their instrument? No. I don't even think that about myself. It's just weird to hear someone who literally jogs ZERO hours of practice, and ZERO ounces of effort, lump herself in with people - regardless of skill or monetary compensation - who make music an important part of any given day, week, or month....the people who have a driving passion for it.
I'll admit it, though it's piqued my interest about how others view what a musician really is.
And Neil...I know what you're saying; it's like writing a report based on notes taken from Wikipedia. But I think you get the point of what I'm going for here. (And Neil, on a side note: did you go to the Philosophy Department reunion some time back? I couldn't make it, but it seemed like fun).
Well...you could follow up with the standalone definition of skill: Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
So I think to be a musician, you have to practice a lot.
I personally think you also have to be a composer to really be a musician - playing other people's work doesn't cut it for this girl. That makes you a performer, not a musician.
You all can ready your arrows, I'm going to go find my shield.
I am the thread killer.
Chica!: Well...you could follow up with the standalone definition of skill: Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. So I think to be a musician, you have to practice a lot. I personally think you also have to be a composer to really be a musician - playing other people's work doesn't cut it for this girl. That makes you a performer, not a musician. You all can ready your arrows, I'm going to go find my shield.
What do you mean by compose? Write your own part, or write your own SONG? Because tons of bands only have one songwriter...does it mean that the rest of the band aren't musicians in your eyes? In my band, all four of us write songs, so I take no personal offense to this...but I guess I'm asking you to clarify what you mean. No shield needed!! haha
Even when I rock with the cover band, I'm still improvising a lot of my leads, so I'm making something up right on the spot. There are tons of fabulous jazz musicians who may only play the standards, but I'd still call them musicians.
I usually refer to myself as "guy who plays guitar" - it even says that on my cards I hand out to people. I've never liked telling people that I'm a "musician" - it sounds so hoidy toidy and not fun.
B I U ABC
I think you can go ahead and call yourself a musician Mycicle
Heyooo!! I wish there was a rim shot smiley face..
Micycle:I've never liked telling people that I'm a "musician" - it sounds so hoidy toidy and not fun.
That's because you forgot to raise your pinky as you sip on your tea while wearing a monocle.
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Chica, by your definitian, the London Philharmonic is composed entriely of people who are not musicians!
Guile:That "I am an Artiste, and you just don't get it" crap is tired and lame.
"You're an artist? Paint my house, ***!" -- Gene Simmons
You can't fool me. I listen to Public Radio. -- Squidward Tentacles
Hangover Tim Company: Chica, by your definitian, the London Philharmonic is composed entriely of people who are not musicians!
Haha! I predict that Chica will concede on this one, as she seems to be a woman of reason.
Speaking of reason... I think it's safe to say that any one of us is a __insert current career here__ first with "musician" being a far off 5th or 6th (lookin' at you, family men/women).
Therefore, to introduce yourself as a musician is not only wholly pretentious but outright disingenuous.
But that's just my reasoning on the subject.
Newman: Hangover Tim Company: Chica, by your definitian, the London Philharmonic is composed entriely of people who are not musicians! Haha! I predict that Chica will concede on this one, as she seems to be a woman of reason.
Although I did say a long time ago that Orchestras are all just cover bands, it was strictly tongue-in-cheek.
Partial concession - I was actually tempted to come up with a more thorough reasoning behind my thought because I did think about orchestras and such when I was typing it. Let's see...how to explain this...
Crap. I can't.
I think there is a big difference in creating art and performing art. There are talents involved in both but I think your talent is on a bigger level if you are able to create the art. A lot of people can play a song on whatever instrument you want to name. IMO, it takes a different and more rare talent to be able to create the stuff than to perform it. I'm not and never have been in a band (except for Mad Huskies, which was made up...it's a long story), but I assume that very few bands don't collaboratively create their music. Yeah, in a lot of situations, someone is probably primarily responsible for some or all parts of the process but I assume that all the members have input as to the finished product. You have to have knowledge and skill that is greater than that of solely playing your instrument to qualify as a musician. I know that this argument falls apart when you think about people like session musicians who are just there to record or as a hired gun for a performance.
All you really need to do is listen to the difference between a middle school band class and a professional orchestra to know that there is a difference between playing your instrument and being a musician. The 200 kids in band during middle school will whittle down to 100 in high school and even fewer will continue to pursue music in adulthood. Some kids suck and some kids are proficient, but there is a smaller number who can really interpret the music. I don't know what it is, if it's passion or drive or love of it or what, but you guys should know because most of the folks here (except me) are or have been the people creating the experience. There has been enough bitching here about pop stars not being musicians because all they do is sing stuff that is created by other people, so this is a subject where I know there are contradictions.
I guess the succinct way to say is that a musician has a talent that allows them to present art in a way that will move people and I think it's an innate talent that not everyone has and it's ridiculous how many people would say that they are musicians. It's like me saying I'm a chef because I cook. Not the same thing.
Jeez. All these words and I don't think I did much of a good job explaining my position. I knew I should have taken debate in high school.
Folkerts: Speaking of reason... I think it's safe to say that any one of us is a __insert current career here__ first with "musician" being a far off 5th or 6th (lookin' at you, family men/women). Therefore, to introduce yourself as a musician is not only wholly pretentious but outright disingenuous. But that's just my reasoning on the subject.
The only trouble with this line of reasoning, though, is this: I'm currently 'unemployed', to an extent. Yet, I'm able to still supplement my living with playing music...therefore, not only is music a career of mine, it's been a very close second for quite some time...and at my current state, it's now moved into the "#1" spot. However, I don't consider myself 'more' of a musician than anyone on this board - even though I've been making money doing it the past three years (pre-unemployment), and have probably played more hours/sets in a month than many of you combined. For me to claim "musician" is not only not pretentious or disingenuous, but rather something I have to claim at the end of the year with 1099's.
I guess the main reason I brought any of this up, is because in light of the American Idol phenomenon, it's become much more apparent as to how many people claim to be musicians. It pretty much seems to have no value (as anyone can claim it), and it bums me out, I guess? When that gal (as referenced above) said "well, from a musician's perspective", it pretty much made it all seem like a big fat joke. Perhaps, my friends, it is!
Chica!: It's like me saying I'm a chef because I cook. Not the same thing.
It's like me saying I'm a chef because I cook. Not the same thing.
That's a little tricky because I believe "chef" is an actual credential you earn through education/certification.
I do understand what you're saying... at the same time, I think if somebody had a passion/love for cooking and it was their "thing" I wouldn't have a problem with them identifying themselves as a "cook". "Gardener" might be another good example.
Of course, there's no way to measure that passion. So it's a self-identification and I think you just have to take people at their word.That's how you see yourself? Okay, cool. Maybe it's a phase, maybe that passion fades in time. Maybe not.
Folkerts: Speaking of reason... I think it's safe to say that any one of us is a __insert current career here__ first with "musician" being a far off 5th or 6th (lookin' at you, family men/women).
I don't get this.
Yeah, I'm putting myself out there for all kinds of crap to be flung my way, because I'm not in a band (have been, but it's been years) and not in the social scene. But I've never ranked aspects of my life like that. I'll avoid a flowery & personal monologue detailing what being a "musician" means to me, but I'll say that if I never play on a stage again but continue to hear music in my head and feel compelled to make it real - - if only for myself to hear - - I won't consider myself less of a musician than when I was playing at the Red Sea on a Wednesday night.
And no offense, Folkerts, but I think somebody who has a family and the demands of a full-time career... and still feels the need to make time in his or her life to make some music in some capacity... actually shows more dedication & passion for music than a college-aged kid with plenty of free time to kill.
Guile:Of course, there's no way to measure that passion.
I think we need to invent a unit of measurement to use.
This is dumb. A person who makes some attempt at playing music qualifies as a musician IMO. Just like a little kid tossing a bobber into a lake qualifies as a fisherman.
The question is whether or not they're any good.
We were all Quitnesses.
GG: This is dumb. A person who makes some attempt at playing music qualifies as a musician IMO. Just like a little kid tossing a bobber into a lake qualifies as a fisherman. The question is whether or not they're any good.
Exactly right.
The fisherman analogy is probably the best used in this thread.
If you make music in any capacity, feel free to call yourself a musician.
Why is it we are supposed to care about this again???
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Scobbs: Why is it we are supposed to care about this again???
No one does...it was just a passing thought. Did you even read the thread, before asking a pointless question about a pointless topic?
Lorenzo: Scobbs: Why is it we are supposed to care about this again??? No one does...it was just a passing thought. Did you even read the thread, before asking a pointless question about a pointless topic?
He usually just trolls the board for dates.
Immitation is the best form of flatery.